119411-some-feedback-about-endgame-and-the-lack-of-usability-in-general
Content ---- ---- ---- No. I'm just saying that locking some of the control customization options is a very, very cheap way to make content feel more challenging. If the only way to make things feel harder is giving shit controls then to me it's a failure. I have all of these gaming stuff but none of them would work anyway since, as I said, left and right click can't be bound and since there's no default mouselock options. There's a reason every single action MMORPGs uses such default controls. It's because they provide a better experience and are easier to master. In the meantime, currently, the learning curve is very chaotic, extremely long, and people leave. | |} ---- The hell are you talking about? Nobody has ever had this problem using keyboard and mouse except for you as far as I can tell (this is literally the first time anyone has mentioned any of this on the forum). Besides, every MMO regardless of whether it's action or tab target benefits from an MMO mouse. There are also plenty of addons that lock the cursor to the center of the screen and give you mouse look. I use Steer to lock my cursor because it can be configured to only do so while moving/in combat: http://www.curse.com/ws-addons/wildstar/220093-steer KeybindFreedom allows you to bind stuff to your main 2 mouse buttons (I don't actually use it but it says it has that feature): http://www.curse.com/ws-addons/wildstar/220129-keybindfreedom Though I don't believe for a second you need to bind anything to your main 2 mouse keys. Most of us have some kind of gaming mouse with extra buttons on it anyways. I have my entire LAS bound to my mouse, and I only ever use the keyboard for movement in combat. If you want to see more of the field for situational awareness, adjust your FOV in the video options. | |} ---- :rolleyes: I've tried these addons and if the first one works (with a lot of work because the game doesn't allow that by default), the second one doesn't work at all. Having a 12 mouse button is still kinda useless to me if for some reasons the devs don't want people to bind stuff to the most easy to use ones. I do have all sort of expensive Razer expensive gear but none of them will feel right as long as some critical customization options are locked. I know the community is quite toxic but I honestly didn't expect to be flamed because I said the default controls are a piece of shit that could make a ton of people leaving the game... | |} ---- How is it with a lot of work? I didn't have any problems installing or using it. It installed on the first try, and hasn't stopped working since. The only reason I got it was because I was tired of holding the right mouse button all day long and didn't want muscle strain. Otherwise, it's the exact same experience. I'll have to check the second one when I get home, but 12 button mouse is no harder to use than a normal mouse, except you press buttons with your thumb, not your forefinger. This is a common problem in all MMOs because there are so many skills to use, and that's the entire reason there exists such a thing as an "MMO mouse" in the first place. The only things that are locked are the 2 mouse buttons, because they serve specific purposes in interacting with the UI and the camera. How else are you going to click on things, place a ground target aoe, or rotate the camera manually? | |} ---- ---- ---- Like I said, you and your friend are literally the only people to ever make a complaint about the controls. The default controls are completely standard to the MMO space. Even locking the cursor for mouse-look is nothing but automated holding down the right mouse button. I seriously cannot fathom your issue because you make it sound like you only have one arm. | |} ---- Max field of view isn't enough (on top of making the game really ugly). Some boss arenas are just way too big. Like the one of the flamethrower lady in SSM. I always see the walls of flames too late to move to the safe spot. This is of course just an example - there are many other ones. I'm also wondering why would anyone disagree with the devs using another tool to expand the gameplay and make stuff easier to notice. Out of curiosity, why are text popup better? And don't talk about deaf people, greatly lowering everyone's situational awareness for a very specific and unique disease (text can stay anyway for what I care) isn't a valid answer to me. | |} ---- ---- Yes, Wildstar's controls are default for tab-target games, but they are not default for action combat games. I don't get why people defend these controls, needing to utilize an add-on for basic controls is not a good thing. | |} ---- The fire walls make noise when they spawn too, and you should be camera turning looking at each direction non-stop (I assume you're talking about the last phase since they only come from one direction the rest of the time). Native mouse-lock support with GTAoE targeting enabled would be great, but you're talking like the game is unplayable, and it's clearly minor issues you have trouble with. I've also never played an Action-MMO with abilities bound to the mouse buttons. | |} ---- You don't need to utilize an addon at all. You can hold the right mouse button can't you? You have a middle finger do you not? Binding things to my main mouse buttons would make absolutely no sense as a Stalker because I have more than 2 skills in my rotation. | |} ---- Most of us are wondering what the issue is. I use a gaming keypad, but there's no reason you can't rebind the whole ensemble over a step on the keyboard and get almost the exact same experience. I certainly don't lock my cursor and would definitely need to have that off if they'd decided to include that in the control scheme (obviously, I use motion using my left hand thumbstick and I tend to free pan the camera around so I can run in one direction while looking in another). YMMV in controls. I'm not necessarily attacking the idea of more UI options, I suppose more potential stock variety isn't necessarily a bad thing even if I don't use it, but I don't think it's outrageous to mention if we're not having major control issues and to inquire as to the exact nature of the problem. A lot of us get really worried if there's a push for Carbine to fix something that we don't think is broken, because they do listen and I don't necessarily need any changes to the stock controls. If a player is having a niche problem with some specific movement/button combination, I would really rather the player rebind to a more comfortable layout, get an addon, or purchase a peripheral to help them deal with their issue rather than having Carbine install the keyboard setup that was proposed in the OP. I use only two buttons for anything other than movement on my mouse, my thumb buttons, and I'd rather it stay there. The controls are working absolutely fine for me, I really don't need them fixed and it's entirely possible that the massive rewrite to default controls the OP is suggesting will do a lot more harm than good. It certainly won't do me any favors but would be incredibly annoying to have to try to turn this new default UI back into the one that's working perfectly well for me. The idea that it's "broken" seems more like a matter of opinion than a matter of fact. I certainly don't think the controls are broken, so I apply that old saying about things that aren't broken. | |} ---- ---- Minor issues? Well maybe you don't know the kind of gaming rig most MMO players have. A lot of laptops, cheap and old stuff people got gods know where, outdated graphic cards, a 3 buttons mouse and a 5€ keyboard... Having a good experience with the most basic and cheapest setup (a 3 buttons mouse and a normal keyboard) is kinda critical if you want these people to play your game. They can be good players and nice people. And if a game requires additional equipment most of them will just quit. This isn't a minor issue in any way. And this is the first game I ever see requiring me to re-bind everything. | |} ---- I don't see how that's possible. I've played 6 MMOs in the last 10 years, all used these exact same controls, and I haven't needed to re-bind a single default key in any of them except for auto-run because Numlock is derp (I've added some stuff not bound by default). I know the kind of gaming rig most MMO players have: It's the kind that plays WoW, and these controls are copied directly from WoW. | |} ---- ---- I'm pretty sure they put quickslot keybinds on 1,2,3 because it's in ascending numerical order. 1st button is the 1st hotkey, 2nd button is the 2nd hotkey etc. Numbers just make sense that way. I can't imagine how long it would take to learn FGBCTEXZ because they are not even all adjacent to each other. You can't expect the general population to take up that standard. | |} ---- You aren't required to do anything; I used the stock UI for months and didn't even have anything bound to my mouse. I got the Orbweaver essentially because my hand was cramping stabbing buttons repeatedly, then I learned you can just turn on hold-to-click in the UI options. The one thing that Orbweaver (the only thing I have as far as controls that most gamers don't) does that makes everything better is the thumbstick. Essentially, my WASD isn't even under my fingers anymore, I handle it all with my thumb. That's not something any game is going to make better by changing the default control scheme, that's just pure ergonomics and a purchased advantage. Before that, I was doing just fine until a 10 hour stretch might start hurting my hand from key spamming. That was my only control issue. Your proposed setup would have replaced a few keys I make use out of for other skills. Still, there isn't anything stopping you from binding your keys there, or even moving the entire binding area over. I was given that rather brilliant idea just after headstart, where one of the forum users literally just shoved the whole keybinding to the right by a key. They essentially bound movement to ESDF, then used the extra array of keys for easier hits. My Orbweaver meant I never had to worry about that again, and there's really nothing Carbine can do to put you on the level of someone who doesn't even have his movement keys bound in the same area as the spell keys. Sometimes, even if a game's controls are perfect, you're just not a match for more serious equipment. There's no combination of movement keys and spell keys in any default array to make up that gap. | |} ---- I've not said I'm against native support for locking, but presented you with options that could help you; That is FAR from defending. If there was anything I'd push for it'd be native controller support instead of using apps like xpadder or whatever people use these days. As for text popups, I can't see how this is a bad thing or hampering others. Without bringing up deaf players(though they are assisted by this), depending on your role you may not be able to see or even hear everything and the text pop ups are quite significant to notice. As noted before as well raids often these days need you to listen to players on vent/mumble/TS/whatever so a boss yelling while Bob is shouting something important not related to that particular thing can be very confusing. Of that playerbase though, unless they're new to MMOs and or even computer games in general wouldn't they rebind normally if possible unless said game had a perma lock on the keys.(which I hate) I can't see any game having "perfect" default controls for everybody. I can only speak for myself and people I know, but someone I introduced to WS earlier this week uses a similar setup to what you describe and has not had much issue with the controls other than feeling it unnecessary to keep pressing their 1 key for their builder repeatedly, which you can check off in combat options that you can instead hold your keys to repeat an ability like menacing strike over and over if you prefer. Even a great deal of console games offer rebinding options as well, because one setup may not feel right for one person compared to another. | |} ---- Indeed. My raid leader has a foot pedal he uses for dodge, for example. I've also heard of a raid guild clearing GA with them all using a steering wheel/driving sim controller (though that may have been a prank:P). | |} ---- ---- That would be awesome to see, though! | |} ---- Actually I never said I did change. I actually use the out of the default keybinds and for the longest time I used a logitech M500 with a gateway keyboard(that i still use) and have had no issue reverting back to an M500 when I had to get a replacement mouse. | |} ---- What I don't know (and I really don't know) is how the keybind experience is for new players who are just playing casually. I rebind my keys because I'm doing a lot more complicated content. I always figured the default controls were fine for casual players who were just going to level and quest. That being said, the first think I did for my fiance was unbind her turn keys and buy here a gaming mouse . . . (I knew I'd want her to run dungeons eventually, though). | |} ---- If addons weren't available, I would have no problem using stock controls. In fact, I haven't changed any stock keybinds related to combat, and the only addon I have that alters controls is the cursor lock so I don't have to hold the right mouse button myself. So literally, the only thing that would change for me is that I would revert to holding the right mouse button. The entire point of addons is so you can customize your UI and controls however you like without screwing up everybody else's setup. If I have the option to make modifications, I can always find some stupid little thing I think is cool. When I was playing SWTOR, the UI was horrible and addons weren't a feature, so I dealt with the terrible setup wishing for addon support to be added (it never was). Compared to most games with addon support that I have played, I have used the fewest addons in Wildstar. Your point of view is that addons are a crutch, when in fact they are a feature specifically designed to offer customization options that may be unrealistic to include in the base client, or simply niche functions like cursor lock. | |} ---- ---- ---- Sorry but really have to disagree there - Yes a lot will have that rig, but I bet you most MMO players have "decent" setups (and i dont mean expensive) you can buy the gaming mouse i use for £34 | |} ---- I already said I use an add-on because I don't want to hold the right-mouse button down for hours at a time, and it did significantly improve the quality of the gameplay for me. The controls are not gamebreaking (and I never argued they were), but there should at least be a simple mouse-lock in the default controls as that is standard in any other action-oriented MMO. I have customized the controls to my liking (including add-ons and peripherals) but the controls are just another rough edge that Wildstar has, and if they want to grab the more casual player, they will need to improve the default controls. | |} ---- Heh, I know why they do it, but some of those are the worst keys to actually use, particularly 7 & 8. I guess you could use a num-pad. Like I said, it's a peeve ;) I'm really a bit more annoyed that they use keys left of U,J & M to open up UI elements. The related peeve is when you ask somebody how to look up a piece of information like raid lockouts and they give you the default key instead of naming the frame (IIRC it's a tab in the LFG frame in WoW). Whoops, R not B. Of course not. My binds tend to follow a personal convention: Main builder on F, main spender on G, gap closer on Z, interrupt on E, CC breaker on A, frequent abilities on R,T,V & B. Less frequent stuff on S,D,Q,W,X,C,Y,H & N, chord with Shift-, Ctrl-, Alt- as needed. Other people need to do what is comfortable for them. I have been considering a foot pedal for my PTT key because Firefox hard codes mouse button 5 to "Go back". If only Chrome supported the RequestPolicy addon FF would be a distant memory. | |} ---- http://www.curse.com/ws-addons/wildstar/220693-lockdownBasically what you meant correct? I really don't find the point in arguing that they should have done action rpg controls like that by default though, there's a level of disconnect /discomfort when you're firing telegraphs in my opinion. The current controls have no negative impact on me and feel great in my opinion. | |} ---- I think i've done it already but ok let's do this again. Many telegraphs require a lot of precision not to step into them: mouse. Executing your rotation perfectly requires the use of the keyboard. Sadly the stock controls either force you to switch a lot between mouse and leyboard since spells are bound to the numpad or to just use the keyboard only, which kinda sucks when you want not to stay in red areas. The inability to bind the most used spells to left and right click makes the use of the mouse not convenient at all. Because guess what I'm a normal person and I only have 5 fingers on each hand. With 9 spells and 4 keys to move it means the most convenient way to do things is to split the spells between both hands (like auto attack and finishter to left and right mouse buttons since that's the ones I use most but anything works). The left hand can also do some spell casting work since most of the times we're only using one or two fingers to move anyway. These should however be very close to WASD. This is how most action RPG control works and their gameplay is at the same time easier to grasp and easier to learn - which means a more straightforward learning curve, while, in some case, having more complicated movement requirements. That's my issue with controls currently. | |} ---- I would argue that the more casual MMO player has no idea about cursor lock, and has never played a game that used it. Very few do. I've only run into 1 game that had it in the stock UI in the last 10 years. Obviously cursor lock is to your liking. Forcing it as the default for everyone trying the game is as likely (if not more) to push away new players as it is to keep them, because there are way more MMOs that use the current default control scheme. The current default control scheme is what is comfortable to the majority of MMO players, and why it's the setup repeated in every MMO that ever comes out now. They could at some point add the cursor lock option to the default UI, but there is clearly no rush because multiple addons exist to fulfill that desire. | |} ---- No. " Known IssuesManual target doesn't work Mouse clicks cannot be used for keybinds" :) | |} ---- Can you expand on this? I can't imagine anything but someone playing one-handed. I'm not sure what you're actually doing... | |} ---- Try Lockdown. http://www.curse.com/ws-addons/WildStar/220693-lockdown#t1:other-downloads I recall trying this one but I never tried the LMB RMB feature out. I preferred Steer over that one because the lock was linked to movement. | |} ---- Right hand on WASD and the left one on the numpad for spells? Idk that's the stock keybinds. But sometimes there are tricky movements to do, like telegraphs with safe spots thinner than my character's butt and it's clearly impossible to do with the standard WASD/QE keys only (like the cave part in skullcano, the storms in stormtalon, and basically most of the bosses and minibosses in SSM). | |} ---- It's not numpad for spells. You're meant to use the row of number buttons at the top of the keyboard adjacent to the WASD keys. Numpad keybindings are separate from the regular old 1 through 0. ie. Hotbar 1 = 1, versus Hotbar 1 = Numpad1. I have my numpad set as alt keys for Ctrl-F1 through Ctrl-F6, but 1 through 0 are still my LAS. The numpad certainly is not the default set of keybinds for hotbar 1. Unless you're implying your laptop has a numpad but not a row of numbers (which would be remarkably uncommon). | |} ---- ---- I assumed (which is my bad) that when we were talking about mouse-lock it would be a keybind toggle (similar to every game that has it, and most of the add-ons). Again, if you played tab-target MMOs Wildstar has the same controls, but any action-combat MMO (Tera, Neverwinter, TESO) has mouse-lock (as a keybind toggle) as default. Again add-ons are not a part of the new user experience, nor are they generally a part of the casual gamer experience, which are both areas where Wildstar can use some improvement. | |} ---- ---- I don't think it's a particular oversight, per se (I'd never want to actually use a combat toggle considering how often I am moving one way and looking in another, especially on my Spellslinger), I don't think it would necessarily be a bad idea to have a mouselock toggle, just as long as that wasn't part of the default control scheme. I tried the addon once (because I literally had no idea what people were talking about) and I can't for the life of me figure out why you guys would want to lock the right mouse button down like that. But to each their own. That's what addons and UI options are for, I suppose. If that actually autoengaged in combat when I first started playing Wildstar, though, I'd have had a conniption; it felt incredibly awkward to someone who doesn't use it. | |} ---- I found that I was holding the right mouse button down basically 100% of the time while I was in combat to aim my telegraphs while moving. So I got Steer, which locks the cursor while I'm moving or in combat (I can also hold alt to break out of cursor lock if I need to). In any case, doing that for 6 hour stretches started to give me muscle strain. I generally don't look in directions I'm not facing because if I need to dodge something I need my visual reference to be aligned with my movement keys so I don't screw up the dodge (my left stupid! not your left!). It also feels more realistic actually having to turn to look behind compared to a floating head doing it for you. I turned on hold to cast for ergonomic reasons too. Got tired of spamming buttons, and it's more effective if there's lag. | |} ---- I'm just so used to being able to turn and look in other directions while I'm working that's it's permeated everything I do. Especially in a dungeon, I'd have been tearing my hair out not being able to aim a charged shot while looking to check on my position relative to the healer. I'd have REALLY pissed my pants if that happened while tanking, I'm always spinning the camera to look behind me. It's an old habit from WoW and later FFXIV:ARR I guess, I don't like to stop what I'm doing to have a look around. | |} ---- Not being able to rotate the camera freely is far less of an issue as melee though. Even if you have to turn, you can almost always position yourself around the boss so you are still hitting your target and looking around. As a ranged caster, well that's more of a detriment because turning a little bit can make you miss your target completely. You learn to compensate in other ways though, and as I said, if I really need to look around I can always toggle the lock mid combat, which still minimizes the right mouse button holding time. | |} ---- I guess it must take some getting used to. To the point of the discussion, though, if it was included as DEFAULT on when I first started, I'd have had a problem. | |} ---- ---- Ironically you are complaining that you can't customize the game controls the way you want by complaining about people who have customized the game controls to the way they want. | |} ----